Author Topic: Israel Under Attack  (Read 53085 times)

WLJ

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #450 on: October 31, 2023, 11:59:22 AM »
See the link. There is an argument to be made between the difference of bombing civilians and civilian collateral damage from bombings.

Not an argument for this thread but he's spitting hairs between what constitutes tactical vs strategic necessity.
Don't get me wring, I fully believe the British and the US especially later in Japan went way overboard, if that's the right word, in targeting civilians and in many ways it constitutes war crimes and both Harris and LeMay would have been tried as war criminals had the war had gone the other way. That said the Germans opened the bombing of civilians can of worms in both WW-I and WW-II
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dogmush

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #451 on: October 31, 2023, 12:33:11 PM »
Why is attempting to break the enemy's morale suddenly not a valid strategic aim?

Especially in a "total" war like WWII, war is being waged by a whole country, with even "civilian" industry going to further the ability for the warfighters to succeed.

America's great success at shielding it's population from any discomfort at all from warfare is a big reason we're so willing to throw money, guns, and soldiers at every flare-up around the world.  For the vast majority of Americans it costs nothing.

Ben

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #452 on: October 31, 2023, 12:44:49 PM »
Why is attempting to break the enemy's morale suddenly not a valid strategic aim?

Especially in a "total" war like WWII, war is being waged by a whole country, with even "civilian" industry going to further the ability for the warfighters to succeed.

America's great success at shielding it's population from any discomfort at all from warfare is a big reason we're so willing to throw money, guns, and soldiers at every flare-up around the world.  For the vast majority of Americans it costs nothing.

For me, it's only the issue of saying it's valid for one side but not the other. I mean, you could argue that WW2 Germans got "the von Clausewitz treatment" with the British bombings, which von C argued (obviously no flying bombs then, but the idea of "shock and awe") was a valid strategy to actually lessen long-term casualties (much as was likely argued when the decision to drop the A bomb was made). There really are no good guys in war. You can say one side is better than the other, or one side is less bad, but there's often a myth that the US, for instance, is all Captain Americas and Alvin Yorks and apple pie. Or currently, Israel and Ukraine, even though we've seen links right here in the forum to Ukrainian (our "good guys") war crimes.

War is hell though, and your last sentence is important. US citizens/civilians have not had to face the horrors of war in a war zone since the Civil War. I grew up hearing the perspectives of civilians who did live in war zones, so it makes me a little less gung-ho about "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out".
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K Frame

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #453 on: October 31, 2023, 12:49:53 PM »
War became "moralized," somehow, between the end of World War II and the Vietnam War.

Not sure how, not sure why.

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WLJ

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #454 on: October 31, 2023, 01:04:10 PM »
Call me a romantic or something but there is a point IMHO where it can be called going too far. Where that point is is like defining what art is, I know it when I see it.
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cordex

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #455 on: October 31, 2023, 01:09:47 PM »
Why is attempting to break the enemy's morale suddenly not a valid strategic aim?
Are any and all actions justified if they can be defended as breaking the enemy's morale or reducing your enemy's warfighting potential?  Are there any lines that should not be crossed?

Also, if you're going to argue in favor of facing the blunt realities of war then maybe it isn't the time to hide behind gentle euphemisms like "break the enemy's morale".

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #456 on: October 31, 2023, 01:19:01 PM »
I would argue that any democracy that declares war against another nation, the public of that democracy is fair game.

They put that government in power, and they are the means to alter the sentiment of that government.

It's certainly the case with Hamas in Gaza.  If there are Hamas-originated terror attacks in the US, then it's fair game for US forces to attack Gaza civilian targets and attempt to sway their public to not attempt that again.
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WLJ

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #457 on: October 31, 2023, 01:33:18 PM »
I would argue that any democracy that declares war against another nation, the public of that democracy is fair game.

They put that government in power, and they are the means to alter the sentiment of that government.


Something of a moral dilemma in that since there's more than likely a sizeable chunk that didn't. Take the US for example, I didn't as well as nearly 50% of the pop vote for Biden.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #458 on: October 31, 2023, 01:37:39 PM »
Something of a moral dilemma in that since there's more than likely a sizeable chunk that didn't. Take the US for example, I didn't as well as nearly 50% of the pop vote for Biden.

I'm really weird politically.  No one in office supports or represents me.  There are at least a few politicians that represent what you happen to believe in.  Democracy just means that the mob plurality (not even the majority, just the biggest mob) gets their say, and I'm at the mercy of it.  And so are you.

Doesn't make me immune from civilian international attacks.
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WLJ

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #459 on: October 31, 2023, 01:52:44 PM »
None is this really applies to the thread anyway as far as Israel is concern, they're targeting Hamas as much as possible, it's just that Hamas is dug among and and using civs as shields. Sucks for the civilians but there you have it, nothing can really be done about it if Hamas is to be eliminated.
Hamas did in fact target civilians and in many cases children as their primary target.
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WLJ

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #460 on: October 31, 2023, 02:07:55 PM »
While I don't always trust what Israel says I never trust anything Hamas says

More than 50 people are killed in Israeli strike on Gaza's Jabalia refugee camp, Hamas claims: 'Dozens of bodies' are recovered after site is reduced to giant crater as IDF forces hunt for hostages in the city and target tunnels
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12693827/More-50-killed-Israeli-strike-Gazas-Jabalia-refugee-camp-Palestinian-health-officials-claim.html
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Northwoods

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #461 on: October 31, 2023, 02:34:59 PM »
See the link. There is an argument to be made between the difference of bombing civilians and civilian collateral damage from bombings.

There’s also an argument to be made for “total war” as it can overall duration and ultimate casualties.
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Ben

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #462 on: October 31, 2023, 02:38:14 PM »
There’s also an argument to be made for “total war” as it can overall duration and ultimate casualties.

Which I mentioned in reply #452.  =)
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dogmush

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #463 on: October 31, 2023, 02:40:35 PM »
Are any and all actions justified if they can be defended as breaking the enemy's morale or reducing your enemy's warfighting potential?  Are there any lines that should not be crossed?

Also, if you're going to argue in favor of facing the blunt realities of war then maybe it isn't the time to hide behind gentle euphemisms like "break the enemy's morale".

Second question first:  I wasn't using a euphemism, or at least not trying to.  The strategic objective of the Allies area bombing in WWII* was to break the enemy's morale, so that enough civilians would put pressure on their government to stop the war, and force them to stop.  Either through civil pressure or revolution if the public got mad enough.  There was never the idea that we'd kill civilians for the sake of it, or destroy homes because we didn't like the architecture or something.  The idea was to so demoralize Germany, and later Japan, that they sought to end the war.  Didn't work in Germany, did in Japan.  "Dehousing" is certainly a euphemism, but "Strategic bombing of the civilian population to break their morale" isn't, I think.

First question:
That's harder, I think.  It kinda depends on the stakes of the war, which is hard to talk about as an American because we go to war for sport and profit.  Congress likes to talk about "Existential Threats to Our Democracy" but we haven't really faced one since the fall of the USSR, and that one is debatable.  The Taliban and Iraq could in no way, no how, actually have destroyed our country in the 2000's rhetoric aside. 

So let's talk about Wars, with a capital W.  WWII, the Khmer Rouge, Some of the African wars last century, Yugoslavia, the Cuban revolution, Vietnam (from the South's perspective), Third Punic war, if you want to be the bad guy, the Indian wars of the 19th century west.  Those wars WERE existential threat to at least one side.  Losing that war meant the end of you culture and identity, genocide, often enslavement, loss of homeland the whole shebang.  Communists are especially bad.  You lose a revolution with them and more often than not double digit percentages of your population are murdered. 

So in the face of that, is there a line you don't cross?  Somewhere you say "Nah, I won't.  I'd rather die, see my wife and children raped and enslaved and my homeland destroyed."?  No, you do whatever you can, and whatever you have to and you win, or you die, because there isn't another option.

That cold reality: that in a real war there isn't actually a line you won't cross, is the real impetus for the Conventions and Treaties of the 19th and 20th centuries. They try to provide an avenue for wars where the threat of losing the war isn't existential to the nations involved and so there can be red lines not to cross.  Those efforts are marginally successful, at best, as WWII shows, and as we would have demonstrated had the Cold War gone Hot.

So take the current Israeli-Hamas conflict.  Israel is willing to have a two state solution, but not one Palestine "From the River to the Sea".  They perceive the cost of giving up that much land and resources as the end of Israel as a viable state and a prelude to a Jewish massacre.  Hamas is unwilling to accept a two state solution and would like to take over the the governing of (at minimum) large portions of what is now Israel and the people there, and make a Arab-Muslim state.  (Maybe Theocracy, maybe just state with strong Sharia Laws, depends on which Hamas leader you ask).  Both sides see losing the overall conflict as an existential threat to their people and homeland.  So they probably don't have a line they won't cross, and we should stop pretending they should.  This is not that kind of conflict. The only thing both sides agree on is this overall conflict is a war of survival.  They might, given enough pressure from outside forces, negotiate an end to this particular flare-up, but they will not end the conflict until one of them is not able to continue. 

Personally, I think Hamas is the "bad" guy here.  Their basis for this war is unjust, I feel, but clearly they disagree, and are going to go at it full steam.  Israel should make decisions predicated on the knowledge that Hamas will continue this war until they fall and there is one united Palestine.


* The Allies also had bombing campaigns targeting military or industrial targets, but those aren't the ones we're discussing here.

WLJ

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #464 on: October 31, 2023, 02:59:32 PM »
The idea was to so demoralize Germany, and later Japan, that they sought to end the war.  Didn't work in Germany, did in Japan. 

There was no public call to end the war in Japan, if anything the vast majority of the public was prepared to fight to the bitter end and was shocked at the decision despite the fire and nuke bombings.
Now it can be argued it did influence the Emperor's decision to end the war as continuing it could likely result in the extermination of the Japanese nation and people in his mind.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2023, 03:15:17 PM by WLJ »
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cordex

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #465 on: October 31, 2023, 03:32:21 PM »
Second question first:  I wasn't using a euphemism, or at least not trying to.
Got it.  "Break the enemy's morale" could mean a lot of things, but in retrospect and in context it is clear you weren't trying to be euphamistic.

WLJ already addressed it, but I don't think there is any evidence that strategic bombings worked to convince a civilian populace to sue for peace anywhere in WWII, and that includes after the nuclear bombings of Japan.  Certainly the major strategic bombing campaigns impacted production, transportation, etc., but they never instigated a civilian populace to terminate the war.  Yes, the faction of Japanese generals that was pushing to end the war was able to gain the upper hand after the nuclear bombings, but I don't think there was anything like a significant popular movement to end the war motivated by the various conventional and nuclear strategic bombings.  Maybe we just needed to do a little more of it, though.

So let's talk about Wars, with a capital W.  WWII, the Khmer Rouge, Some of the African wars last century, Yugoslavia, the Cuban revolution, Vietnam (from the South's perspective), Third Punic war, if you want to be the bad guy, the Indian wars of the 19th century west.  Those wars WERE existential threat to at least one side.  Losing that war meant the end of you culture and identity, genocide, often enslavement, loss of homeland the whole shebang.  Communists are especially bad.  You lose a revolution with them and more often than not double digit percentages of your population are murdered. 

So in the face of that, is there a line you don't cross?  Somewhere you say "Nah, I won't.  I'd rather die, see my wife and children raped and enslaved and my homeland destroyed."?  No, you do whatever you can, and whatever you have to and you win, or you die, because there isn't another option.
It's definitely not a theoretical issue - plenty of people have faced that kind of decision in the past.  In other cases they just convinced themselves that they faced it to justify what they wanted to do anyway. 

While resorting to whatever necessary to achieve goals certainly seems to have some reasonableness in an existential conflict, I'll admit to being soft, safe, and privileged enough to be uncomfortable with - for instance - raping babies to death to demoralize my enemy, or genociding people similar to my enemy to demoralize them.  Maybe I could concoct a situation where I could head down that road and be able to justify it on the other side, but it's hard to imagine it.

dogmush

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #466 on: October 31, 2023, 03:51:50 PM »

While resorting to whatever necessary to achieve goals certainly seems to have some reasonableness in an existential conflict, I'll admit to being soft, safe, and privileged enough to be uncomfortable with - for instance - raping babies to death to demoralize my enemy, or genociding people similar to my enemy to demoralize them.  Maybe I could concoct a situation where I could head down that road and be able to justify it on the other side, but it's hard to imagine it.

I agree with you that it is hard to imagine those circumstances, and honestly I never even want to get close to them. We're pretty secure in this super power.  There's probably a cultural component as well, as a lot of cultures and sub-cultures don't look on raping and youth in the same way that Western white folks do, and that may very well make their jump to atrocity a lower bar.  There's also Conflict's ever present "othering" that humans seem to be really adept at. 

Morality and spirituality really should start rearing their heads in people right around here, but it seems that in the crux those often fail too.  It's pretty uncomfortable to really ask yourself if you are that much better than, for example, the the men of Reserve Police Bn 101 in Germany. (ref)   I personally went through a stage around deployments 2 and 3 where it was really easy to hate Arabs, and not give a damn about them being killed.  With introspection, I came out of that kind of generalized "*expletive deleted*ck them, they aren't us" attitude, but it's pretty easy to get into when *expletive deleted*it starts getting real.  As a professional soldier with the US playing around with the whole "Near Peer" conflict paradigm it's a question I contemplate frequently, and not always comfortably.

Ben

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #467 on: October 31, 2023, 04:11:35 PM »
One of the reviews in Dogmush's link really hit the point:

Quote
They weren’t necessarily members of the vicious SS. Instead what distinguished them was that they were ordinary German men from working class backgrounds, mostly in their later 30s or older who found themselves transferred to Poland and were ordered to kill the Jews they rounded up to make Poland Jew Free. While some did refuse to follow these orders, which they were permitted to do without penalty or official reprisal, about 90% did willingly take part to varying degrees. Some did kill for a while and then later stopped. Some wouldn’t participate at first but later did take part. Some would kill adults but not children. Others were full-out killers who took fully indiscriminate part throughout.

That really drove home the point, of, to make a Firefly paraquote, "finding the real man".
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K Frame

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #468 on: October 31, 2023, 04:57:27 PM »
There was no public call to end the war in Japan, if anything the vast majority of the public was prepared to fight to the bitter end and was shocked at the decision despite the fire and nuke bombings.
Now it can be argued it did influence the Emperor's decision to end the war as continuing it could likely result in the extermination of the Japanese nation and people in his mind.

When it became known that the Emperor was going to address the Japanese and call for the end of the war, there were MULTIPLE coup plans in both Japan and Manchuria to 'take the Emperor into protective custody' and continue the war.

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MillCreek

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #469 on: October 31, 2023, 05:35:36 PM »
On a completely different topic, and I hope dogmush can chime in, but what tactics are used to destroy deep tunnels in built-up civilian areas?  I have been reading a lot about the extent and construction of the Hamas tunnels, and it seems like a tough nut to crack. 
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WLJ

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #470 on: October 31, 2023, 05:38:47 PM »
When it became known that the Emperor was going to address the Japanese and call for the end of the war, there were MULTIPLE coup plans in both Japan and Manchuria to 'take the Emperor into protective custody' and continue the war.

Almost succeeded too. John Toland covers it petty good in his book The Rising Sun: The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire
Which reminds me, I need to order a new copy, mine grew legs at some point.
Darn good read that gets into the politics in Japan before and during the war.

https://www.amazon.com/Rising-Sun-Decline-Japanese-1936-1945/dp/0812968581
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Ben

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #471 on: October 31, 2023, 05:42:55 PM »
On a completely different topic, and I hope dogmush can chime in, but what tactics are used to destroy deep tunnels in built-up civilian areas?  I have been reading a lot about the extent and construction of the Hamas tunnels, and it seems like a tough nut to crack.

Looks like you can just shoot a missile at them:

https://twitchy.com/coucy/2023/10/31/hamas-tunnel-collapse-n2389242
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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #472 on: October 31, 2023, 06:27:51 PM »
On a completely different topic, and I hope dogmush can chime in, but what tactics are used to destroy deep tunnels in built-up civilian areas?  I have been reading a lot about the extent and construction of the Hamas tunnels, and it seems like a tough nut to crack.

I've read they are injected colored smoke, and bombing where it exits.

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #473 on: October 31, 2023, 07:02:59 PM »
^^^^

The Israeli (not so) secret super duper tunnel sealing method, the Sponge Bob Bomb. It actually looks like a viable alternative rather than crawling through miles of tunnels, seal em off and call it good. Maybe they will give some to the US so they can seal off the drug tunnels running under the border near San Diego.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12680935/SPONGE-bomb-Israel-disable-Hamas-tunnels-palestine-gaza.html

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #474 on: November 01, 2023, 06:37:52 AM »
Yemen's Houthi rebels, who are backed by Iran, have entered the conflict, saying that they've launched drone and rocket attacks at Israeli targets.

Israel says they've intercepted and destroyed them all.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/israel-says-it-thwarted-aerial-attacks-by-yemen-s-houthis-near-red-sea/ar-AA1jbw7y
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