Author Topic: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize  (Read 45646 times)

TommyGunn

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #125 on: February 01, 2014, 11:26:51 AM »
So because we've declared an open ended war that definitionally cannot be won, we are morally in the right to kill anyone in any country in any way in your mind? What exactly is the difference in America blowing up innocents in a foreign country, and some other country doing the same? You just shrug and say "Meh, it's my country so we can slaughter all the women and children we feel like and I'm ok with it."
First, I reject the idea of a war that  "definitionally cannot be won."  ANY war "can" be won if it is prosecuted aggressively and intelligently.   I think I may have intimated a few times in this thread I don't necessarily believe this war has been fought that way.
If we cannot, "by definition", win this war against AQ, then how are we supposed to deal with terrorists who want to establish a caliphate and bring down America?
Your "morally in the right" phrase is interesting.....not too many people would, IMHO, talk about war in terms of "morality."   War is Moral?  Really?   I talked about WW2 and the bombing of Dresden & Tokyo, those actions nearly obliterating the entire city and killing countless thousand of supposedly "innocent" people.
Was THAT moral?
Back then it was justified under the concept of "total war."   More specifically, the respective leaders of the country had brought the wars on themselves through their violent actions and thus despite the fact it was American & British bombers that dropped the bombs killing the civilians, it was Hitler & Tojo who were morally responsible as they had precipitated the war.

On 9/11/01 AQ commited an act of terrorism against us that precipated what should have been an all-out war against them.  

What would your response have been? I'm not going to get snarky or sarcastic or anything, even though I often do make the mistake of doing that; I am honestly asking you what would you do to stop these "Islamofascists" or Jihadis (call them what you will, let's not quarrel over signage) effectively?  
If you accidentally killed an innocent (and if your response includes any kind of protracted violence then the odds of this go up) would you stop, or continue?  
Would you not pursue any kind of violent action at all, for fear of killing innocents?



Quote from: Revdisk
Couple points, sir.

1. You may not even know you're associated with real or perceived terrorists.
2. You don't have to be associated with terrorists to be a target.
3. You're assuming folks don't make mistakes. See children and US senators ending up on the No Fly list.

I'm not against intelligence, drone strikes or other such activities. I believe they need to handled better, and that US citizens should not be the targets. The US military and intel community should be our watch dogs, not our masters. This is not an insult, but an honor. If they bite their owner however, there's no choice but to replace them.

1.)  Possible .... but I really suspect people in A'stan usually know far more than they would be willing to tell outsiders about who they're collaborating with.
2.)  Is this through deliberat action on our part or misidentification?  Hard really to respond to such a general statement.
3.) Such is the nature of humankind; we make mistakes.  We made 'em in WW2.   I think I outlined one blunder we did regarding Purple Intelligence earlier in this thread.  Mistakes ought to be corrected and possibly we need to improve how we take decisions on drone strikes to reduce mistakes.  It is very difficult to get a good grasp on how badly we're performing because I don't think we know enough about the total picture of what all goes wrong vs. what went right.


RevDisk just gave al qaeda insight into our intelligence apparatus.

He's a traitor and should be punished

Fitz, the sarcasm really isn't helpful.  
If you're still a little burned about some of the things I said I apologize.



MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

dogmush

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #126 on: February 01, 2014, 12:11:56 PM »
First, I reject the idea of a war that  "definitionally cannot be won."  ANY war "can" be won if it is prosecuted aggressively and intelligently.   I think I may have intimated a few times in this thread I don't necessarily believe this war has been fought that way.
If we cannot, "by definition", win this war against AQ, then how are we supposed to deal with terrorists who want to establish a caliphate and bring down America?

But we specifically DIDN'T declare war on Al Quieda. If we had we would probably be done already.  We declared a "War on Terror".  And as someone who's been fighting it for a bit now, we "definitionally" can not win it.There will always be terrorists looking to strike us or our allies.  Eventually they will get lucky and succeed.  We can not end international terrorism. 

Tallpine

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #127 on: February 01, 2014, 12:26:08 PM »
Quote
Bin Laden may have believed in his own mind what he did was fully justified and probably inspired by Allah, but that doesn't mean he was right or that Allah had anything to do with it.


Just as you believe in your own mind that the USSA is right.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

TommyGunn

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #128 on: February 01, 2014, 12:50:05 PM »
But we specifically DIDN'T declare war on Al Quieda. If we had we would probably be done already.  We declared a "War on Terror".  And as someone who's been fighting it for a bit now, we "definitionally" can not win it.There will always be terrorists looking to strike us or our allies.  Eventually they will get lucky and succeed.  We can not end international terrorism.  

I am not convinced that made any difference, really .... but I do think we should have declared war on AQ.
I understand the "rhetoric" is 'we're fighting a war against terrorism.'  In that, you're right, a war against an "ism" isn't going to be won as there will be another group and then yet another and .... so on. However, as I see it we're hardly even really fighting a war against AQ.  We haven't bombed Hezbullah or brother terror groups that have been harrassing Israel, or just about any other group one can talk about.
We are, IMHO, conducting a half-assed ...."struggle" against AQ. 
So when our courageous leaders call it a "war against terrorism,"  yeah,  maybe it's  :facepalm: time.

Just as you believe in your own mind that the USSA USA is right.
 FIFY

The old "moral equivelency" argument.  My belief=Bin Laden's belief.
Is anyone actually wrong in your universe Tallpine.
Do you agree with:
Tallpine's belief=TommyGunn's belief?
If you believe THAT, what's the point of debating with me?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 01:00:00 PM by TommyGunn »
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Tallpine

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #129 on: February 01, 2014, 12:59:08 PM »
Quote
Is anyone actually wrong in your universe Tallpine.

You are  :P


You might take a look at that "golden rule" thing  ;)
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

TommyGunn

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #130 on: February 01, 2014, 01:01:08 PM »
You are  :P


You might take a look at that "golden rule" thing  ;)
And the Golden Rule applies to this debate .... how?  >:D
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

cordex

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #131 on: February 01, 2014, 01:57:39 PM »
The old "moral equivelency" argument.
You keep referring to the moral equivalency fallacy, but I don't think it means what you think it means.
You can't just cry "Moral equivalency! You are wrong!" every time someone makes any comparison.

There are valid moral comparisons that can and should be made.

JN01

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #132 on: February 01, 2014, 03:50:48 PM »
I know, I understated the case. I'm kinda busy this week. I skipped over a lot of material.

In seriousness, anyone in the know knows not to cross the NSA. The CEO of Qwest learned that the hard way. He refused to play ball with illegal wiretapping, coincidentally went to jail for alleged insider trading and the US govt doesn't allow any of the NSA blackmail into evidence as it's classified. So did anyone foolish enough to work within the system as a whistleblower.

With respect, I don't think you or most people here understand. This isn't bad, it's just a lack of first hand experience. During my time in the military and government, I have worked with the NSA on a couple of occasions. Hell, when I was about 15 or so, I called them up, asked them to send me some books and they did. They sent me two meters of books, which took up an entire bookshelf of my youth. Even threw in some photocopies of some interesting open papers and whatnot. I joined the Army, went into Signal, and dealt with them on a regular basis because they handle the military's crypto.

Each and every single NSA employee I have ever met has been intelligent, thoughtful, competent, decent human being with a sense of humor. You have no idea how terrifying that was and is. Everyone on this board that worked for or with any part of the US government would find this as unnerving as I did. The NSA is more dangerous than any other part of the US government, including the military. For one simple reason. They're competent. Period, end of sentence. That should chill anyone to their very bones. Competency is bred out of any US government organization, in the long term. People that are intelligent, innovative, competent and generally decent human beings don't rise up the ranks and rarely end up as government lifers.

Historically, the NSA stuck to its knitting. Yes, they crossed the line here and there. But rarely and virtually never got caught. For decades, they were "No Such Agency" and black as a coal mine. The fact that they're making the news on a near daily basis is a complete 180 from their roots.

I suspect the decent individuals will start leaving. Any that stay will be less moral and decent. Competence will slip, because the less moral kind tend to be less intelligent, dynamic and innovative. But they'll still have a treasure trove of blackmail material that will put J. Edgar Hoover to shame. The NSA has been collecting dirt on politicians for a very long time. Decades of records. Ask Michael D. Barnes.

It's one reason why they hoover up so much US related material. Today's kid on FB may become tomorrow's Senator, billionaire tech CEO or maybe just a janitor that cleans the toilets at Realtek in Taiwan when the NSA wants to steal their signing certificate to assist the development a virus to slow down Iran's nuclear development. Yes, that would be Stuxnet. The NSA was wiretapping President Obama long before ANYONE thought he would ever become POTUS.

Funny part. I'm not sure how much I helped the NSA do all of these things. At DISA, I maintained infrastructure for the DoD and intel community. You're never supposed to know the contents of the stuff you handle, and 99% of the time, I never did. Well, except for the zOS IBM mainframe that processed their budget. That was a "fun" day. =D

Kinda 1984. I helped them build the platforms they used to spy on me and everyone I know. Oh, nothing complex or Jason Bourne. Swapping hard drives, rebooting routers, etc. Very mundane tasks.  


*shrug*

Couple points, sir.

1. You may not even know you're associated with real or perceived terrorists.
2. You don't have to be associated with terrorists to be a target.
3. You're assuming folks don't make mistakes. See children and US senators ending up on the No Fly list.

I'm not against intelligence, drone strikes or other such activities. I believe they need to handled better, and that US citizens should not be the targets. The US military and intel community should be our watch dogs, not our masters. This is not an insult, but an honor. If they bite their owner however, there's no choice but to replace them.  

At the moment, there is no oversight or accountability. None, zero. There are some ceremonial rubber stamps, that is all. Unlimited reach with no limits makes one sloppy, and lose focus. It shows, badly.


Btw, I apologize in advance if I sound patronizing or if I seem to be raking you over the coals, TommyGunn. Just that this sort of thing used to be more of my life than most and I kinda take it personal. Well, more accurately, this sort of thing *expletive deleted*ed my life.

It is interesting to hear the perspective of an insider.  So do you think that the genie can be put back in the bottle?   How do you keep tight reins on the intelligence apparatus?  Is there an effective strategy for getting good, timely, relevant information on our enemies while respecting freedoms, or does one have to be sacrificed for the other?

White Horseradish

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #133 on: February 01, 2014, 04:00:02 PM »
First, I reject the idea of a war that  "definitionally cannot be won."  ANY war "can" be won if it is prosecuted aggressively and intelligently.   I think I may have intimated a few times in this thread I don't necessarily believe this war has been fought that way.
Fair enough. Can you define what victory in the War on Terror is and when it might possibly be achieved? How do we know we won and it's time to stop?
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Fitz

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Re:
« Reply #134 on: February 01, 2014, 04:10:51 PM »
I don't particularly care if my sarcasm is helpful in your mind at this point. Especially after some of your sarcastic nonsense (klingons, really? That's your deflection of an analogy?)

and it's about as helpful as any of the mindless flag waving, if you ain't with us you're against us *expletive deleted*  you've posted

You call into question peoples allegiances and then are surprised when they're no longer interested in having a discussion with you?

If you know how to win the war against al qaeda, then by all means , do it. I can recommend a recruiting station . Or perhaps you can run for office
Fitz

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Fitz

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Re: Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #135 on: February 01, 2014, 04:23:02 PM »
Fair enough. Can you define what victory in the War on Terror is and when it might possibly be achieved? How do we know we won and it's time to stop?


Well that's easy. The complete elimination of anyone who might eventually kill an American... Duh
Fitz

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Gewehr98

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #136 on: February 01, 2014, 05:03:18 PM »
I actually had to Google "John Le Carre" - I had no idea who or what that was.  I live a sheltered life, I guess.

How do we go forward?

I know one thing that should be implemented, right now.

Decentralize oversight.  Get an oversight/IG office in each branch, way down below directorate level and where the worker bees are.

I don't care if you're gathering HUMINT, MASINT, ELINT, SIGINT, COMINT, whatever.  Create oversight managers, train them in the mindset of protecting the U.S. Constitution and civil liberties, then put them to work.

You submit a request or start a new activity, that local oversight manager has to sign off on it - AFTER researching the legality thereof.

We all believe in the basic goodness of humanity, but my own experience after 20+ years in the IC is that there are way too many in those 3-letter organizations with somewhat faulty moral compasses.

They think they're doing Gawd's work.  Hell, so did I.  But in the pursuit of scoring the big jackpot, they get even more hungry.  Moar. MOAR.  MOAR. "We can do this thing, it's not as bad as they say it is, and it'll save lives!"

The collection capabilities of the U.S. Intelligence Community, if you've not been numbed to it by prolonged exposure, are mind-boggling, to say the least.  

The day I retired, I signed a stack of non-disclosure paperwork, one clause that even forbade me from writing a book about my experiences until 75 years after I left.  

Smart cookies, they are.  They know I can't write that book from my dirt nap location.  

At first I thought, "Well, hey, they're just protecting sources and methods".   Maybe so, but they're also blocking the American public from knowing stuff that would really piss them off and rock the White House a hell of a lot worse than Snowden's piddly little disclosures.

Implement more stringent declassification guidance and schedules. We collect, classify, and hoard way more information than we discard.  

There are supposed to be yearly reviews of material for downgrade or declassification.  I say "supposed to" because it's in the guidance, the documents are even stamped with upcoming declassification dates or "OADR", but not always followed. The ten-year rule is a good one, if followed.  

In my neck of the woods, that review happened only after driven by a FOIA request coming through the door,  or some news event that made CNN or The New York Times.

"Classify and forget" seemed to be the mantra.  Hell, there's there's still classified material about the ethnic tensions in Bosnia and Serbia during the Austro-Hungarian era, predating WW1.  For Gawd's sake, why?

Revise whistleblower training, for both collectors and managers.  Remove the stigma, and remove the friggin' retribution from doing so.

"We're collecting on American citizens, that ain't right!" should be met with action to stop that activity until it can be checked out for Oversight compliance, not an automatic categorization of "He's a terrorist, giving Al Qaeda the keys to 'Merrica".

Your life is essentially ruined for doing The Right Thing.

I didn't do the whistleblower thing, because I personally shut down many of those nascent collection ambitions and ideas, which I know for a fact torqued the agencies that thought they were the greatest thing since sliced bread.  

That doesn't mean I'm in collusion with Al Qaeda.  Nor am I talking Walker Spy Ring here.  Those who would sell state secrets for financial gain, that's a different beast, bona-fide treason, and should be dealt with appropriately.  

That ain't Snowden.  

I hope the IC, not just the NSA, gets a thorough shake-down after the Snowden episode.  
  




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Fitz

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Re:
« Reply #137 on: February 01, 2014, 05:22:27 PM »
Traitor
Fitz

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TommyGunn

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #138 on: February 01, 2014, 06:10:45 PM »
You keep referring to the moral equivalency fallacy, but I don't think it means what you think it means.
You can't just cry "Moral equivalency! You are wrong!" every time someone makes any comparison.

There are valid moral comparisons that can and should be made.

I see no valid moral comparisons in how AQ perceives our war on Jihadism and how we perceive their attrocities.
Nor do I see any comparison between how some Afghani villager perceives out .... "intrusion" into their country to hypothetical intrusions by some foreign entities into our country for putatively similar motives.


Fair enough. Can you define what victory in the War on Terror is and when it might possibly be achieved? How do we know we won and it's time to stop?

As I believe I've said, "the war on terror" is a misnomer.   We are .... or rather should be .... conducting a war against AQ.   As previous posts indicate I don't really believe we're doing so well in that respect.


I don't particularly care if my sarcasm is helpful in your mind at this point. Especially after some of your sarcastic nonsense (klingons, really? That's your deflection of an analogy?)

and it's about as helpful as any of the mindless flag waving, if you ain't with us you're against us *expletive deleted*  you've posted

You call into question peoples allegiances and then are surprised when they're no longer interested in having a discussion with you?

If you know how to win the war against al qaeda, then by all means , do it. I can recommend a recruiting station . Or perhaps you can run for office

You know Fitz, I'll say it it again, if I rubbed you the wrong way I'm sorry.  The Klingon thing was a bit of sarcasm.  I'm sorry if you left your sense of humor elsewhere.   
In the end much of the irritable barbs I have posted are in response to some of the nastiness I have perceived on this thread.
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

Fitz

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #139 on: February 01, 2014, 06:21:49 PM »
I see no valid moral comparisons in how AQ perceives our war on Jihadism and how we perceive their attrocities.
Nor do I see any comparison between how some Afghani villager perceives out .... "intrusion" into their country to hypothetical intrusions by some foreign entities into our country for putatively similar motives.


As I believe I've said, "the war on terror" is a misnomer.   We are .... or rather should be .... conducting a war against AQ.   As previous posts indicate I don't really believe we're doing so well in that respect.


You know Fitz, I'll say it it again, if I rubbed you the wrong way I'm sorry.  The Klingon thing was a bit of sarcasm.  I'm sorry if you left your sense of humor elsewhere.   
In the end much of the irritable barbs I have posted are in response to some of the nastiness I have perceived on this thread.


The question stands... how would you prosecute this war on al qaeda. What is the end state, and when do you stop?

Keep in mind that the "Al Qaeda" moniker has been adopted, abandoned, and adopted again by several offshoots that, at various times, are tightly or loosely affiliated with the others, depending on the current internal climate, goals, engagements around the world, etc.
Fitz

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TommyGunn

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #140 on: February 01, 2014, 06:30:30 PM »

The question stands... how would you prosecute this war on al qaeda. What is the end state, and when do you stop?

Keep in mind that the "Al Qaeda" moniker has been adopted, abandoned, and adopted again by several offshoots that, at various times, are tightly or loosely affiliated with the others, depending on the current internal climate, goals, engagements around the world, etc.

Kill them and break their things.   Worrying about numerous ancillary groups is too distracting .... we didn't "get" every Nazi high command in WW2, some got to South America through ODESSA or DER SPINNER.   No one is about to suggest since we were creaming the Nazis back then we ought to continue THAT war against Neo-Nazis in the present.
For similar reasons we need to finish off the relevant AQ and Taliban assets in this war.
And remain on guard against the "offshoots" because I don't think they are Boy Scouts.
However, as I have said, I no longer believe we are up to this, as a nation. 
So it isn't going to happen.
Therefor, sadly, your inquiry is .... irrelevant.
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

Fitz

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #141 on: February 01, 2014, 06:32:22 PM »
Kill them and break their things.   Worrying about numerous ancillary groups is too distracting .... we didn't "get" every Nazi high command in WW2, some got to South America through ODESSA or DER SPINNER.   No one is about to suggest since we were creaming the Nazis back then we ought to continue THAT war against Neo-Nazis in the present.
For similar reasons we need to finish off the relevant AQ and Taliban assets in this war.
And remain on guard against the "offshoots" because I don't think they are Boy Scouts.
However, as I have said, I no longer believe we are up to this, as a nation.  
So it isn't going to happen.
Therefor, sadly, your inquiry is .... irrelevant.

Here again you show a lack of understanding

Al qaeda is NOTHING MORE than a vast network of the numerous ancillary groups. There IS no "al qaeda" army. it's a ton of small groups of no more than a few people.

Ignore them, and you've accomplished absolutely nothing. In fact, the BULK of the opposition against us in both Iraq and Afghanistan have not been affiliated with AQ.

Care to take a gander at how many insurgent groups are involved in A-stan and Iraq?
Fitz

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TommyGunn

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #142 on: February 01, 2014, 06:34:35 PM »
No, your knowledge of the subject matter is irrelevant.

Al qaeda is NOTHING MORE than a vast network of the numerous ancillary groups. There IS no "al qaeda" army. it's a ton of small groups of no more than a few people.

Ignore them, and you've accomplished absolutely nothing. In fact, the BULK of the opposition against us in both Iraq and Afghanistan have not been affiliated with AQ.

Care to take a gander at how many insurgent groups are involved in A-stan and Iraq?

OK then DO go after them.   Perhaps you should explain how YOU would prosecute this war since you seem to think what I know is irrelevant.
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

Fitz

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #143 on: February 01, 2014, 06:35:51 PM »
OK then DO go after them.   Perhaps you should explain how YOU would prosecute this war since you seem to think what I know is irrelevant.


I , unlike you, have not claimed to have those answers.

I do know that it's difficult, if not impossible, to win a war against that kind of enemy.

Problem with you is, you seem to think that any abuse is justified in the prosecution of that war, which i disagree with.

I don't think that an entire party of revelers who may or may not have a connection to terror is an acceptable cost to assassinate one guy. Nor do i think we should go into other countries and bomb them without a declaration of war on that country. Nor do I think that spying on americans is justified.

Apparently you do, and I suspect that's the biggest reason we'll never agree.

You're funny though. you're basically saying that we, as a nation, don't have the stomach for... SOMETHING. Something you can't define.

But DAMMIT, we're pansies and we dont have the stomach for it!!!
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 06:39:07 PM by Fitz »
Fitz

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Tallpine

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #144 on: February 01, 2014, 06:41:02 PM »
Quote
I see no valid moral comparisons in how AQ perceives our war on Jihadism and how we perceive their attrocities.
Nor do I see any comparison between how some Afghani villager perceives out .... "intrusion" into their country to hypothetical intrusions by some foreign entities into our country for putatively similar motives.


Obviously, you don't  =(
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

White Horseradish

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #145 on: February 01, 2014, 06:42:22 PM »
As I believe I've said, "the war on terror" is a misnomer.   We are .... or rather should be .... conducting a war against AQ.  

What you think we should be doing is not relevant. What is relevant is what we are doing, and according to our leadership we are fighting a Global War on Terror(TM). You say that this is not an unwinnable war. Tell me how it can be won, how we would know when to stop.

our war on Jihadism

Ah, so it's a war on Jihadism, is it? Ok. Jihadism is the belief in armed jihad. Tell me, how can a war against a belief be won?

Kill them and break their things.  

What things, exactly, do they have that we can break?  How many of them do we kill? Is it, even in theory, possible to kill them all?


EDIT:

Check out this medal here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_War_on_Terrorism_Service_Medal

What war is this, again?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 06:50:23 PM by White Horseradish »
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TommyGunn

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #146 on: February 01, 2014, 07:04:06 PM »

I , unlike you, have not claimed to have those answers.
I never claimed I had all the answers.  Seems to me you and a few others here have claimed to have all the answers.  "Like the war being "unwinnable" for example -- and that is in fact an answer, albeit a bad one.

I do know that it's difficult, if not impossible, to win a war against that kind of enemy.

Problem with you is, you seem to think that any abuse is justified in the prosecution of that war, which i disagree with.
I don't think abuse is justified, I think it is inevitable.   
I don't think that an entire party of revelers who may or may not have a connection to terror is an acceptable cost to assassinate one guy. Nor do i think we should go into other countries and bomb them without a declaration of war on that country. Nor do I think that spying on americans is justified.  Apparently you do, and I suspect that's the biggest reason we'll never agree.


Actually I agree with the part about not spying on Americans.
As to "declarations of war" we've fought a number of wars without them.  I wish we had declared war, but I can't accept the notion that we didn't as an excuse not to fight the war.
I don't like blowing up entire parties to get one person....but such are often "targets of opportunity."   If the particular bad guy would oblige us and stand out in the open fine, get him.
Thing is, I listen to half the people complain about this war being concerned about hitting wedding parties and the like when we shouldn't be ..... the other half of complainers state the "rules of engagement" are so tough that warriors are often unable to engage the enemy when they do have them in sights. 
Which is it?
Why is it people today object to killing innocents ... as I said we whacked plenty in Dresden, Tokyo and elsewhere in WW2.  Is it because that was a "declared war" against soveirign nations that makes the difference? 


You're funny though. you're basically saying that we, as a nation, don't have the stomach for... SOMETHING. Something you can't define.

But DAMMIT, we're pansies and we dont have the stomach for it!!!

Your confusion over this will disappear when it is realized I never said that we're pansies.  Or it should.
IF you remain confused that's your problem.  Perhaps it is not I with the reading comprehension problem.  :P
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

Balog

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #147 on: February 01, 2014, 07:34:39 PM »
Is there any action in your mind that we are unjustified in taking? We have a "war" on terror, so you don't care if we blow innocent people up in countries we have no declared hostility toward. Is there anything you would object to? You keep referring to Dresden: shall we just kill every living person in every Middle Eastern country? Would that be an acceptable final solution, in your mind?
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mtnbkr

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #148 on: February 01, 2014, 08:05:01 PM »
Is there any action in your mind that we are unjustified in taking?

Whatever it takes.  

Or are you soft on terrorism?

Chris

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Re:
« Reply #149 on: February 01, 2014, 08:35:06 PM »
The irony of your position is hilarious Tommygunn

We will do anything we can, including killing innocents, to bring to justice those killing innocents.


Meanwhile, troops get investigated over accidents, but the drones and whatnot can PURPOSELY destroy a party of people because of one HVT.

If a marine squad did it, they'd be in jail

But hey

At least we still have the moral high ground against those terrorists
Fitz

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